Tuesday, September 26, 2006
Grow up, Ruzan!
Am I sounding increasingly a cynical Islam basher, as you say? I believe that the creator and his creation are one and the same and we have to awake to the divinity within us and about us. This is what Hinduism teaches. Islam, in believing in a God that is separate from us is actually a primitive religion, compared to Hinduism. If I say thus, am I being an Islam basher? I submit that I am simply stating facts as I see them to be.
Why do you say I am dishonest? I am only expressing myself. Where have I lied? I may have got my facts wrong and I stand corrected when it is pointed out.
You are unnecessarily being paranoid when you say I want to defame Muslims and Islam. NDTV has given me a forum to express myself and I don’t think NDTV bloggers are the naïve sort to just swallow what someone says. They are discerning folks and won’t allow any nonsense to pass muster without a challenge.
You say I can’t stem the advancement, influence and appeal of Islam ideologically. Islam has been having a captive audience so far, with much of its societies being closed ones. But with the internet’s influence growing, Islam, as it is officially interpreted, will be exposed as a stunted creed, thereby making Muslims an intolerant majority and a turbulent minority, as a famous historian said.
What are the cheap tactics you accuse me of resorting to?
I have not written any fabricated, concocted or baseless falsehoods. I wish you would point out particularly where I have done it.
You say you have answered many questions I have raised and point out that I still parrot the same accusations every time without trying to understand. I say, why don’t you be specific? I think you are attempting character assassination. Just because you answered my questions does not mean I have to accept your answers as gospel truth.
You say I am here to defend falsehood and spread hatred. Pray, which is the falsehood I am defending? If you think defending Hinduism is defending falsehood, then you are welcome to your views.
You might not like my praising and whole-heartedly defending people like Thackeray, Modi, Togadia et al. I have a democratic right to support them. Further, I see them as defenders of Hindutva or the spirit of Hinduism. The spirit of Hinduism is this – that the truth is one and its expressions are many. And I would seek to expose anyone who defends any belief which says that truth is the monopoly of anyone in particular.
You say I am justifying the killing of innocent people in Gujarat as well as demolition of Babri Masjid. The Gujarat riots took place because Muslims burnt Hindus returning from a pilgrimage. Muslims have to blame their brethren in Godhra for the subsequent violence. Babri Masjid was built after destroying the Ram Mandir there. Why should Hindus alone be expected to forget history when Muslims remember diligently every war Mohammad took part in?
Hindus are nothing if they are not secular and not merely tolerant, but have a culture which accepts all religions as various paths towards the truth and expressions of the same. There is no democracy in Muslim countries.
Rule of law? This I accept that the Islam has a clear sense of. The Shariat appeals to many outside Islam also. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But here I prefer to remember Jesus who said an eye for an eye will only lead everyone to be blind.
You say I have justified hatred, crimes and criminals and therefore ask how I think I am tolerant. But where have I justified hatred, crimes and criminals? Be specific, Mr. Ruzan Shah, otherwise you are simply giving me a bad name to hang me.
You say Dalits were excluded by untouchability, even though they were an integral part of Hinduism. They were and are still an integral part of Hinduism. They may have been excluded, but they were never sought to be ethnically cleansed as the idol worshippers of Islam were by Mohamamd. They are very much part of Hinduism.
You challenge me to prove my false accusation that idol worshippers were massacred by Mohammad. All I have to do to prove this is to quote the Quran.
9:5. “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
This is the instruction of Allah in the Quran. Mohammad, being the specially appointed messenger of Allah, would he not have been at the forefront to carry out the injunction of Allah? Thus, even by inference it is proved that Mohammed massacred the idol worshippers. What more proof do you want, unless you want, nevertheless, that Mohammad did not do it, thereby exposing that he did not follow Allah’s command.
You would accuse me of bending things out of context when I quote the Quran. But tell me, would a single word of Allah be out of context? Allah’s context surely must be in the timeless and spaceless context. By talking of a context with reference to the Quran, you are only saying that Quran requires a context to be relevant, thereby disproving your own claim that Quran is the word of God.
About idols, they are most important. They make us reach the truth step by step. It is like language leading us to the great truth of silence. (Sorry, am I speaking Greek?)
You say idol worshippers are genetically prone to easily develop inability to distinguish things rationally or lack abilities to understand anything that is formless. If what you say is true, then this is most true of Muslims and therefore they must be the greatest idol worshippers of all.
Conceive of anything formless? Muslims can’t imagine it even a wee bit. That is why they want a direction to pray to God. Imagine a direction to pray to God as if God was located in Mecca, the so-called centre of the earth. (How can the surface of a globe have a centre? Maybe the Arabs at that time thought the earth was flat!).
You are greatest when you say that Islam offers complete and final solutions for all mankind. Let me tell you, Ruzan Shah, and through you to all my Muslim brothers, that there is no such thing as a complete and final solution for all mankind. Religion has solutions only for the individual, not for the society. Society is the sumtotal of individuals, but that sum-total is only a shade of what the individual is. My Guru, who is not a Hindu by birth, said that Communism failed because it is a promise to the world and Vedanta succeeds because it is a promise to the individual. (I am sorry if, again, I speak in Greek to you. But sometimes I am unable to express except in Greek. I hope some of my fellow bloggers who know ‘Greek’ will know what I am speaking about.)
Why should a religion be concerned about governance? Religion is a teaching leading to spiritualism of the individual practitioner. I agree that politics is a part of Islam and that is why Islam has failed in what it purports to be, that is, a religion. For religion should create spiritual men (by spiritual I mean being in a state of oneness with God, not as a believer and hence separate from God. Has Islam created such men? If there are such men in Islam, they are the Sufis. Hinduism has created such men throughout the ages and that is why even today Hinduism is alive and kicking without any state patronage whereas Islam is surviving, particularly in Arabia, only because of state patronage and the atmosphere of intolerance towards any other religion exhibited there. Do not call me anti-Islamic for say all this. I am only stating facts as I see them.
You say Islam is the only religion which clearly shows how to rule by divine orders. Look, when divinity becomes your nature, you don’t rule, you become free. You are talking about ruling by divine order. As if God requires his minions to rule the world!
You say Islam is complete in its totality. On what basis do you say that? Because the Quran is the word of God and a perfect book? If that is so, why does Islam require the Sunnah/Hadidths, as if to supplement the Quran? Can’t Islam survive by the Quran alone? If it can’t survive by the word of God, then how is the world to believe that Quran is the word of God?
Does Quran talk of the rule of law or does it have the Shariat, which are harsh measures to force regimentation in society? Real rule of law is the inherent sense of Dharma in society, which manifests itself if it is inspired by self-realized men of religion.
You say I am exposing my ignorance about Islam. Well, I won’t be for long. I have you as my Guru of Islam. Lo!
You keep saying one true God. Can you tell me where the untrue Gods are? You might point to the idols in the Hindu temples. Well, do you really think God feared competition from stone idols in attracting followers? Why have you conceived Allah as a jealous God?
Faith at best may be the beginning of self realization. You have to live in the truth, not live away from truth, with the belief that God is separate from you.
You have the right to preach and practice your religion. Please give others also the freedom. Please tell the Ulema to invite Hindu Swamijis to preach in Saudi Arabia.
For the first time, you have pointed out where I have erred. I said Muslims believe that Mohammad is the final word on religion. You said no, Allah is. I stand corrected. I fully, totally and completely agree with you that Allah is the final word on religion and final authority for everything. I have no quarrel with you on that. But I have, when you try to shrink Allah by saying that he ended his messages with Mohammad. You would even quote the Quran to say that Allah said so. Well, I simply don’t believe Allah said anything of this sort, Quran or no Quran. Hindus have been taught not to accept anything if it does not convince one’s logic, even if it is in the Vedas. No blind belief.
You say that the Vedas say that there is one God. The Vedanta, as you might not know, is part of the Vedas and is considered as the acme of the Vedas, that is, it is where its most philosophical teachings are written for advanced folks. There, it goes beyond saying there are many Gods, one God or no God to state that there is only God. That is my heritage as a Hindu.
You say there is only one god and He is separate from us, his creation. But because the Hindu believes that God is part and parcel and whole of creation, he always has a direct access to God within himself. That is why many Hindu Gurus have claimed to have seen God, experienced God etc. Is this possible according to Islam? (Apart from the special permission Allah gave Mohammad to hop on to a steed and fly to heavens to meet Him?) Is it true that according to Islam, you have to wait until judgement day to meet Allah? Can you please clarify on this?
If you think Hindus believe in two Gods, you are mistaken. Hindus express Gods variously. An expression leads us to the source. Do you think no Hindu has been led to God through idol worship?
You say you totally reject the false deities. They may be false for you. But they are not so to their worshippers. Reject it as far as your own practice is concerned. But do not reject it as practice for others. Unfortunately, this is what Mohammad did when he destroyed the idols in Mecca. There is no getting away from this fact. And don’t call me anti Islam for stating it umpteen times.
You may say idol worship is anti-Islamic because you have been officially told that it is so in the Quran and you cannot have your own interpretation of the Quran. But that is not the culture the Vedas are in. They are in the Hindu culture and the Hindu culture allows its adherents to interpret the Vedas as they please, for they know that if the interpretation is not truthful, the interpreter will only be a laughing stock. But those who saw idols in the Vedas are no laughing stock. They are some of the most venerated names in Hinduism, nay in the world of religion.
You say Mohammad never said he is God. Has Rajneesh said that he is God? Please quote me his saying so.
You are almost warning me to stop spreading lies about Islam because I know nothing about Islam. This reveals your fascist mentality. Expressing my view point on a public document like the Quran or a public and historical figure like Mohammad becomes a violation of some code you believe in. About my knowing nothing about Islam, since every Muslim believes he is duty bound to preach Islam, please go right ahead and tell me all about Islam. But don’t insist that I remain silent after your discourse. I retain the right to question your discourse. I am not a captive Muslim audience. I am a Hindu.
I reiterate that Muslims are being fascist in proclaiming that “Allah is the only true God and Mohammad is his last messenger”. I stand by my statement that this proclamation is fascist because that is how, on the strength of this proclamation, Islam behaved throughout history - intolerance of non-believers. I pray, may the Muslims turn a new leave, may they all become Sufis!
Please don’t say I hate Muslims. I love Muslims. But how am I to prove this to you? I only hate Muslims (or any other religious denominations) saying that their religion is the only true religion. Muslims are simply wrong in saying this. All religions are true, otherwise there would not be so many religions. Only interpretations can go horribly wrong and, in the case of Islam, historically wrong. I hate the sin, not the sinner, as Jesus said.
You say it is an established fact that Darkness opposes Light, Falsehood opposes Truth, Atheist opposes Believer, Evil opposes Divine and Lost people oppose those who are on the right path. By the negatives, I suppose you mean Hinduism and by the positives, I suppose you mean Islam. Give the Hindus too some credit in the field of religion, won’t you? At least we are the oldest religion in the world. When I read the Quran, I feel empowered by the majesty of its vision and scope. But that is because I read the Quran in the light of Vedanta, not in the my-religion-only-true-religion way the Muslims tend to read it. Maybe one day I must write my own interpretation of the Quran, unless the Muslims kill me before that!
You say Islam gives you right of war with the unjust. That’s democracy for the Muslims I suppose, because the Muslims get to decide who is unjust. Grow up, Ruzan.
12:28:18 AM
Posted By VenuGopal Comment (18) Uncategorized
Grow up, Ruzan!
Am I sounding increasingly a cynical Islam basher, as you say? I believe that the creator and his creation are one and the same and we have to awake to the divinity within us and about us. This is what Hinduism teaches. Islam, in believing in a God that is separate from us is actually a primitive religion, compared to Hinduism. If I say thus, am I being an Islam basher? I submit that I am simply stating facts as I see them to be.
Why do you say I am dishonest? I am only expressing myself. Where have I lied? I may have got my facts wrong and I stand corrected when it is pointed out.
You are unnecessarily being paranoid when you say I want to defame Muslims and Islam. NDTV has given me a forum to express myself and I don’t think NDTV bloggers are the naïve sort to just swallow what someone says. They are discerning folks and won’t allow any nonsense to pass muster without a challenge.
You say I can’t stem the advancement, influence and appeal of Islam ideologically. Islam has been having a captive audience so far, with much of its societies being closed ones. But with the internet’s influence growing, Islam, as it is officially interpreted, will be exposed as a stunted creed, thereby making Muslims an intolerant majority and a turbulent minority, as a famous historian said.
What are the cheap tactics you accuse me of resorting to?
I have not written any fabricated, concocted or baseless falsehoods. I wish you would point out particularly where I have done it.
You say you have answered many questions I have raised and point out that I still parrot the same accusations every time without trying to understand. I say, why don’t you be specific? I think you are attempting character assassination. Just because you answered my questions does not mean I have to accept your answers as gospel truth.
You say I am here to defend falsehood and spread hatred. Pray, which is the falsehood I am defending? If you think defending Hinduism is defending falsehood, then you are welcome to your views.
You might not like my praising and whole-heartedly defending people like Thackeray, Modi, Togadia et al. I have a democratic right to support them. Further, I see them as defenders of Hindutva or the spirit of Hinduism. The spirit of Hinduism is this – that the truth is one and its expressions are many. And I would seek to expose anyone who defends any belief which says that truth is the monopoly of anyone in particular.
You say I am justifying the killing of innocent people in Gujarat as well as demolition of Babri Masjid. The Gujarat riots took place because Muslims burnt Hindus returning from a pilgrimage. Muslims have to blame their brethren in Godhra for the subsequent violence. Babri Masjid was built after destroying the Ram Mandir there. Why should Hindus alone be expected to forget history when Muslims remember diligently every war Mohammad took part in?
Hindus are nothing if they are not secular and not merely tolerant, but have a culture which accepts all religions as various paths towards the truth and expressions of the same. There is no democracy in Muslim countries.
Rule of law? This I accept that the Islam has a clear sense of. The Shariat appeals to many outside Islam also. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But here I prefer to remember Jesus who said an eye for an eye will only lead everyone to be blind.
You say I have justified hatred, crimes and criminals and therefore ask how I think I am tolerant. But where have I justified hatred, crimes and criminals? Be specific, Mr. Ruzan Shah, otherwise you are simply giving me a bad name to hang me.
You say Dalits were excluded by untouchability, even though they were an integral part of Hinduism. They were and are still an integral part of Hinduism. They may have been excluded, but they were never sought to be ethnically cleansed as the idol worshippers of Islam were by Mohamamd. They are very much part of Hinduism.
You challenge me to prove my false accusation that idol worshippers were massacred by Mohammad. All I have to do to prove this is to quote the Quran.
9:5. “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
This is the instruction of Allah in the Quran. Mohammad, being the specially appointed messenger of Allah, would he not have been at the forefront to carry out the injunction of Allah? Thus, even by inference it is proved that Mohammed massacred the idol worshippers. What more proof do you want, unless you want, nevertheless, that Mohammad did not do it, thereby exposing that he did not follow Allah’s command.
You would accuse me of bending things out of context when I quote the Quran. But tell me, would a single word of Allah be out of context? Allah’s context surely must be in the timeless and spaceless context. By talking of a context with reference to the Quran, you are only saying that Quran requires a context to be relevant, thereby disproving your own claim that Quran is the word of God.
About idols, they are most important. They make us reach the truth step by step. It is like language leading us to the great truth of silence. (Sorry, am I speaking Greek?)
You say idol worshippers are genetically prone to easily develop inability to distinguish things rationally or lack abilities to understand anything that is formless. If what you say is true, then this is most true of Muslims and therefore they must be the greatest idol worshippers of all.
Conceive of anything formless? Muslims can’t imagine it even a wee bit. That is why they want a direction to pray to God. Imagine a direction to pray to God as if God was located in Mecca, the so-called centre of the earth. (How can the surface of a globe have a centre? Maybe the Arabs at that time thought the earth was flat!).
You are greatest when you say that Islam offers complete and final solutions for all mankind. Let me tell you, Ruzan Shah, and through you to all my Muslim brothers, that there is no such thing as a complete and final solution for all mankind. Religion has solutions only for the individual, not for the society. Society is the sumtotal of individuals, but that sum-total is only a shade of what the individual is. My Guru, who is not a Hindu by birth, said that Communism failed because it is a promise to the world and Vedanta succeeds because it is a promise to the individual. (I am sorry if, again, I speak in Greek to you. But sometimes I am unable to express except in Greek. I hope some of my fellow bloggers who know ‘Greek’ will know what I am speaking about.)
Why should a religion be concerned about governance? Religion is a teaching leading to spiritualism of the individual practitioner. I agree that politics is a part of Islam and that is why Islam has failed in what it purports to be, that is, a religion. For religion should create spiritual men (by spiritual I mean being in a state of oneness with God, not as a believer and hence separate from God. Has Islam created such men? If there are such men in Islam, they are the Sufis. Hinduism has created such men throughout the ages and that is why even today Hinduism is alive and kicking without any state patronage whereas Islam is surviving, particularly in Arabia, only because of state patronage and the atmosphere of intolerance towards any other religion exhibited there. Do not call me anti-Islamic for say all this. I am only stating facts as I see them.
You say Islam is the only religion which clearly shows how to rule by divine orders. Look, when divinity becomes your nature, you don’t rule, you become free. You are talking about ruling by divine order. As if God requires his minions to rule the world!
You say Islam is complete in its totality. On what basis do you say that? Because the Quran is the word of God and a perfect book? If that is so, why does Islam require the Sunnah/Hadidths, as if to supplement the Quran? Can’t Islam survive by the Quran alone? If it can’t survive by the word of God, then how is the world to believe that Quran is the word of God?
Does Quran talk of the rule of law or does it have the Shariat, which are harsh measures to force regimentation in society? Real rule of law is the inherent sense of Dharma in society, which manifests itself if it is inspired by self-realized men of religion.
You say I am exposing my ignorance about Islam. Well, I won’t be for long. I have you as my Guru of Islam. Lo!
You keep saying one true God. Can you tell me where the untrue Gods are? You might point to the idols in the Hindu temples. Well, do you really think God feared competition from stone idols in attracting followers? Why have you conceived Allah as a jealous God?
Faith at best may be the beginning of self realization. You have to live in the truth, not live away from truth, with the belief that God is separate from you.
You have the right to preach and practice your religion. Please give others also the freedom. Please tell the Ulema to invite Hindu Swamijis to preach in Saudi Arabia.
For the first time, you have pointed out where I have erred. I said Muslims believe that Mohammad is the final word on religion. You said no, Allah is. I stand corrected. I fully, totally and completely agree with you that Allah is the final word on religion and final authority for everything. I have no quarrel with you on that. But I have, when you try to shrink Allah by saying that he ended his messages with Mohammad. You would even quote the Quran to say that Allah said so. Well, I simply don’t believe Allah said anything of this sort, Quran or no Quran. Hindus have been taught not to accept anything if it does not convince one’s logic, even if it is in the Vedas. No blind belief.
You say that the Vedas say that there is one God. The Vedanta, as you might not know, is part of the Vedas and is considered as the acme of the Vedas, that is, it is where its most philosophical teachings are written for advanced folks. There, it goes beyond saying there are many Gods, one God or no God to state that there is only God. That is my heritage as a Hindu.
You say there is only one god and He is separate from us, his creation. But because the Hindu believes that God is part and parcel and whole of creation, he always has a direct access to God within himself. That is why many Hindu Gurus have claimed to have seen God, experienced God etc. Is this possible according to Islam? (Apart from the special permission Allah gave Mohammad to hop on to a steed and fly to heavens to meet Him?) Is it true that according to Islam, you have to wait until judgement day to meet Allah? Can you please clarify on this?
If you think Hindus believe in two Gods, you are mistaken. Hindus express Gods variously. An expression leads us to the source. Do you think no Hindu has been led to God through idol worship?
You say you totally reject the false deities. They may be false for you. But they are not so to their worshippers. Reject it as far as your own practice is concerned. But do not reject it as practice for others. Unfortunately, this is what Mohammad did when he destroyed the idols in Mecca. There is no getting away from this fact. And don’t call me anti Islam for stating it umpteen times.
You may say idol worship is anti-Islamic because you have been officially told that it is so in the Quran and you cannot have your own interpretation of the Quran. But that is not the culture the Vedas are in. They are in the Hindu culture and the Hindu culture allows its adherents to interpret the Vedas as they please, for they know that if the interpretation is not truthful, the interpreter will only be a laughing stock. But those who saw idols in the Vedas are no laughing stock. They are some of the most venerated names in Hinduism, nay in the world of religion.
You say Mohammad never said he is God. Has Rajneesh said that he is God? Please quote me his saying so.
You are almost warning me to stop spreading lies about Islam because I know nothing about Islam. This reveals your fascist mentality. Expressing my view point on a public document like the Quran or a public and historical figure like Mohammad becomes a violation of some code you believe in. About my knowing nothing about Islam, since every Muslim believes he is duty bound to preach Islam, please go right ahead and tell me all about Islam. But don’t insist that I remain silent after your discourse. I retain the right to question your discourse. I am not a captive Muslim audience. I am a Hindu.
I reiterate that Muslims are being fascist in proclaiming that “Allah is the only true God and Mohammad is his last messenger”. I stand by my statement that this proclamation is fascist because that is how, on the strength of this proclamation, Islam behaved throughout history - intolerance of non-believers. I pray, may the Muslims turn a new leave, may they all become Sufis!
Please don’t say I hate Muslims. I love Muslims. But how am I to prove this to you? I only hate Muslims (or any other religious denominations) saying that their religion is the only true religion. Muslims are simply wrong in saying this. All religions are true, otherwise there would not be so many religions. Only interpretations can go horribly wrong and, in the case of Islam, historically wrong. I hate the sin, not the sinner, as Jesus said.
You say it is an established fact that Darkness opposes Light, Falsehood opposes Truth, Atheist opposes Believer, Evil opposes Divine and Lost people oppose those who are on the right path. By the negatives, I suppose you mean Hinduism and by the positives, I suppose you mean Islam. Give the Hindus too some credit in the field of religion, won’t you? At least we are the oldest religion in the world. When I read the Quran, I feel empowered by the majesty of its vision and scope. But that is because I read the Quran in the light of Vedanta, not in the my-religion-only-true-religion way the Muslims tend to read it. Maybe one day I must write my own interpretation of the Quran, unless the Muslims kill me before that!
You say Islam gives you right of war with the unjust. That’s democracy for the Muslims I suppose, because the Muslims get to decide who is unjust. Grow up, Ruzan.
12:28:18 AM
Posted By VenuGopal Comment (18) Uncategorized
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