To Patriotic Muslim - Do not question the wisdom of Allah? - updated

Sunday, January 21, 2007
To Patriotic Muslim - Do not question the wisdom of Allah?

I had commented the following in response to Jumbo Jumbo's blog on the fundamental difference between Islam and Sanatana Dharma on Sat, Jan 20 at 12:34:56 AM
K.Venugopal Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:01:29 PM
I have heard a Muslim speaker say that Mohammad himself always existed and he was with Allah even before creation. One message for mankind at the beginning would have been enough for all mankind, when it is said that Adam was the first prophet. Why did Allah have to send messengers after messengers? Was it that the people refused to hear Him or because His words could not stand the test of time? If it is claimed that Islam was there even before Mohammad, does it mean 1. that Islam was functioning then without the Quran? 2. that Islam failed (and therefore Mohammad had to be sent) because there was no Quran in those times? 3. or Allah failed in not sending the Quran with Prophet Adam himself? Anyway, now that we have the perfect book of the Quran, why is not Islam working? The majority of people do not accept Islam. Does it mean Allah would be forced to send another messenger and a new Quran? It would not be morally right for Him to judge the people without first having properly instructed mankind with the proper scripture – one scripture acceptable to all mankind - would it? Or does Allah use the yardstick of only what is acceptable to Him and not mankind?
Mr. Patrotic Muslim commented in turn the following:
patriotic muslim Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:30:04 PM
Venu bhai,There was a huge period of gap between Adam (pbuh) and Noah (pbuh). The first signs of idolatory started during the period of Noah (pbuh). Thats when Noah was inspired by Gabriel to build the ark. Quran says in every age we have sent the messengers to give glad tidings to the people. Even Noah's son was among the disbelievers and paid the price in the floods. Yes you are right, people refused to hear the messengers and continued their blasphemy.Yes, Islam was functioning without the Holy Quran. Every messenger of God received revelations like Psalms, Torah, Bible and in every age we had disbelievers just like now where the majority of the population disbelievs.The Holy Quran is the compilation of all that happened before Prophet Mohammed plus more. It is said in the Quran that there will not be any more messengers or revelations from God till Day of Judgement.Quran contains so many issues zakath to poor, hajj, marriage, divorce, adultery, respect to parents, striving in the way of God etc..When just Adam and Eve were on earth, what purpose will the whole Quran serve? Please ponder over your question.God is God, the Creator, the Sustainer, everything...Who are we dumb human beings who are always dependent on every little thing in life to question the wisdom of the Creator!

In response to Patriotic Muslim’s comment, I offer the following comments:

Dear Patriotic Muslim,

We should not curb our quest of truth by saying, "Who are we dumb human beings who are always dependent on every little thing in life to question the wisdom of the Creator?". This is a modest attitude and in this aspect it is praiseworthy. "To question God" does not mean the arrogance to challenge God, but the sincerity to quest till we get at the truth. I think even the Quran enjoins us to use our intelligence in pursuing matters. So let us not assume the slavish posture of not questioning the master. In any case, Muslims do not take the same position vis-à-vis the Gods and scriptures of other religions – without even a study of them you are ready to say it is all gibberish or out of date, are you not?

If you say that when only Adam and Eve were living, the Quran served no purpose because it deals with matters pertaining to huge populations and complex issues, then surely the present age, when the world population is many times more than it was at the time of Mohammad and infinitely more complex, requires at least an updated version of the Quran, does it not? Why make do with one meant for the desert Bedouins of the 7th century?

Adam and Eve had in them what we also have to solve our individual problems and that is our consciousness. It is the pursuit of our greater consciousness and recordings of its experiences that has given to us the legacy of all our scriptures including the Quran and Adi Granth. Muslims should give up their efforts at foisting the Quran upon all mankind with spurious arguments of a one-and-only Allah, worship and idolatry. I think there is a huge hypocrisy vis-à-vis the meaning of worship and idolatry in Islam. We need to have a separate discussion on this.

Dear Learner,

You say there were many books sent out by Allah including the Bible but you also say that they have become corrupt. That is, no book has remained uncorrupt except the Quran. It would have been OK if the Quran is seen by everyone as a perfect book. In its fundamentals itself it appears flawed. For instance when Allah says there is no god but Him, isn't Allah able to understand that the intention behind all prayers are that it reaches an absolute force? How can any human being pray to any force other than Allah because Allah, according to the Quran, is the only absolute force? Then why did Allah allow his messenger to destroy idols and idol worshippers? On the other hand if Allah wanted everyone to pray in a certain way, then that way would have been the way followed by Adam and Eve and all their descendents since. But it appears that the way of prayers that Muslims have adopted today is a new one initiated by Mohammad and not anything described in the Quran.

Then Allah says that Mohammad is his final messenger. In spite of the fact that the message itself is intact, many different schools of thought erupted immediately after Mohammad’s death. So the finality of the final message did not last even one generation.

My whole point is that Muslims ought to practice Islam to the best of the ability without trying to claim that it is the only true religion. It is nothing but one of the innumerable expressions of man's religious experiences that will continue to flower as long as man continues to live.

3:11:20 PM
Posted By Venu Gopal Comments (7) Uncategorized
Comments
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:44:50 PM
There are many Prophets who were sent with the book.I will name them,Noah, Abraham,Moses,David, Jesus and many more which only Allah knows.One basic thing remains the same, in the teaching of every book that is there is no God except Allah. and the other part was according to the Prophet existed at the time. like at the time of Noah, The kalma was "There is no God except Allah and Noah is the messenger of Allah."Like wise in the times of moses "There is no God except Allah and moses is the messenger of Allah."
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:51:05 PM
You know one more thing venu,The books which were left behind by Prophets were changed by the people who came after them on the instigation of Satan.and the books lost their originality and true essence.and thats the reason why Allah had sent so many messenger after messenger with the book.One more thing my comments are being accept in reverse way that is the one i wrote first is being made the last. so read accordingly.
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:51:34 PM
Venu,you did not know anything about Prophets and books revealed to them.And you also don't know about the contemperory nature of Islam.You know one thing the basic structure of Islam cannot be changed but keeping in view the changing scenario of the world there are some leverages being given by the Muftis(the decree givers)I can't explain you this in detail.
anindita Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:57:18 PM
A warm hi to both of u.....i think both of u need to realise one thing.Discussing whether Islam was working without the holy quran or not is not going to help you people anyhow.there are thousands of people who are dying because of these religious conflicts,thousands of orphans who have no clue at all about the religion to which they belong.lets think about them for a while and try and do something about it.dont waste time on these petty issues please, its a request.

K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:03:41 PM
Anindita, no one is forcing you to read, do or believe anything. You have the freedom to do what you want. Let others do what they want with their time so long as they don't steal from your time. What may be petty for you may be vital for others. In fact, I believe taking to the spiritual path would solve many of the problems you have listed.

senselessCritic Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:06:45 PM
This discussion is senseless. I agree with you Anindita. But who can wake up a person pretending to sleep. Dear Anindita, you are selling icecream to ESKIMOS. Best of luck to you. These guys will not understand the pain of orphaned children--whose parents fell to the gunfire of religion-fron KOSOVO TO KASHMIR TO GODHARA AND GUJRAT.

K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:16:12 PM
Dear Senseless Critic, The pain of orphaned children is tragic. The pain left in the wake of terrorism is no less real, where anybody can be caught up. Narrow-mindedness of creed and intolerance of others' opinions lead to much violence. Let's create a situation where we can live and let live.

K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 6:50:32 PM
Dear Learner, I've commented on your comments but could not put it on the comments slot. Therefore please look up my main blog.

Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:05:58 PM
Adam and eve offered prayers definitely. But the way in which they offered we don't know.they may have offered the way as Prophet(SAWS)did.and yes you are correct the way how to offer prayer is not mentioned in Quran as Prophet has showed the people how to offer learning from Arch Angel Gabriel.
K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:25:02 PM
Dear Learner, Can you enlighten me on the relationship between Mohammad and Arch Angel Gabriel? Did not Allah directly give the revelations to Mohammad or was it always through Gabriel? Was Gabriel someone whom only Mohammad saw?
K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:32:04 PM
Dear Learner, When I said the different schools of thought what I meant was the Shia, Sunni Sufi, Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi, Maliki etc. I must confess I do not know in what way these schools differ except that between Shias and Sunnis it is a major difference and Sufis have thoughts that go beyond Islam.
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:33:34 PM
Elaborate on different school of thought erupted please. i did not get you. Please explain. Then i will answer you, based on your explaination.
K.Venugopal Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:34:55 PM
Please look at the bottom of my blog for the answer as to schools of thought.
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:10:38 PM
All the messengers spoke through Arch Angel Gabriel..Only one messenger has spoken directly to God i.e Prophet Moses (pbuh) on Mt.Sinai (when the 10 commandments or the Torah wa revealed)...direct doesn't mean face to face..there was a barrier of light..Details can be seen in Chpater 20 Surah Ta-Ha..Mohammed (pbuh) always received the revealtions through Gabriel even during Meraaj (ascension to the heavens)..Gabriel came in different forms..many hadiths to this effect are there..He came as an old man. young person etc..Prophet's wives and companions saw and enquired and Prophet replied that it was Gabriel.
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:21:35 PM
The 4 schools of thought i.e Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki and Hambali..they are same..beleive in the Quran and Prophet's sunnah...The diff was in their interpretation of the hadiths and fatwas due to non availability of complete hadiths at that time as each one lived at a diff period of time, in diff part of the world..They have said"If you find a better fatwa based on hadith then throw our fatwa against the wall"...there was no diff in their beliefs..They were all muslims and true believers.
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:29:11 PM
Reg. Shiism ..they have deviated beliefs...they give more importance to Ali (4th caliph) than the Prophet...They accuse the Prophet of deliberately hiding verses about Ali (if the Prophet wanted he could have hidden the verse where God commands him to marry the divorced wife of his adopted son but did not do so), they dont believe in the companions or sahaba or the prophet's wives..They have misguided principles...All the deviated sects like Ahmediyas, Ismailis, Bohras, Qadhiyanis etc are off shoots of shiism...They dont follow the Quran and the Sunnah...That is why there is lots of misinterpretated lietrature abt Islam and abuse by people like you becoz no one studies the source..all go after the deviations to blaspheme!
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:37:06 PM
The basic tenets of Islamic faith other than belief in One God are belief in his angels, all his Prophets (from Adam to Mohammed - some 124000 between them), all his revealed books - 4 mentioned in Quran by name but God says that to every nation and tribe We have sent messengers and revelations.All the prophets believed in the same One God and deplored idol worship... Only 26 prophets mentioned by name in the Quran...many are there unnamed...Rama, Krishna anybody COULD HAVE BEEN the messengers of God, we cant say for sure as it is not confirmed in the Quran... Mohammed is the last and Adam the first...Whoever the Prophet all worshipped the ONE TRUE GOD and abhorred IDOL WORSHIP which is nothing but man made blasphemy against the CREATOR!Vedas too abhor idol worship and asks for beilef in ONE GOD who doesn't have parents, children, wives or images!
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:44:56 PM
and finally like I said earlier, Man is helpless and immaterial in fron of the creator...Man is totally dependent on every materialistic thing in this world for his survival whereas the Almighty doesn't need any of us...Even if we blaspheme or dont worship or believe NOT A SINGLE ASPECT OF GOD will change..IT we who need God and not vice versa...
patriotic muslim Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:46:22 PM
Imagine if God decides to finish the earth and annihilate every living creature or matter..then who will be there to say that some thing called MAN ever lived on the face of the earth or that 2 persons called Venu and Muslim were discussing in the blogs?
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:11:54 PM
I think patriotic Muslim has answered very well everything what venu has questioned.But i will add some more points here.The difference between shafai and hanafi and hanbali is very minute.Actually everyone mentioned above followed the sunnah of the Prophet. One example i would like to give is that in the prayer(namaaz) the shafai school of thought raise hands prior to going in the ruku(bowing)but hanafi school of thought don't do that. Initially Prophet used to do it and later on he left that thing completely but shafai followed it and other didnot followed it because prophet left it. and shafai thought he would not leave anything which Prophet has done. So there is no sin in doing it or not doing it.so these are the minor differences.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:02:17 PM
Regarding loyalty towards allah, it is fine if you do not worship any other god but allah. Now, are you not supposed to be loyal to your own country, your motherland, your society, your nation, your family?
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:05:24 PM
Dear P Muslim,Many prophets got revealation from god directly, like god speaking through their tounge. So don't say only moses got it directly. Also, nobody saw gabriel except muhammad, so your comment that many people saw him is not correct.
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:05:50 PM
Shiism is a political religion.It founder is Abdullah ibne saba.A yemini jew who embraced islam when yemen came under islamic rule. and he on the face has embraced islam but not from his heart. so to put a divide in the Muslims (phoot daal ne ke liye) he unjustly started spreading hatred against the democratically elected caliphs and biasedly sided hazrat Ali. He had no love for Ali but to create nuisance in the Muslim world he did that.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:14:12 PM
Muslim, you wrote:"Man is helpless and immaterial in fron of the creator"I agree with that. But the same creator has given us brain and logic. Being a belieber you were not given a choice to ask even a single question about your religion or any other religion and by birth you are a muslim (in the sense that your up bringing was in muslim family). But we nonmuslims have a choice to look into all the religion and choose whatever appears to be a true religion. In this regard, we can ask questions about religion.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:23:17 PM
Nobody here is denying THE CREATOR but specially Venu and me are asking about validity of islam being the only true religion. Is it possible to achieve mercy and love of the god by doing good deeds and by being a betterhuman? or by only being a practising muslim? that is the question. I hope venu would agree with me.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:41:13 PM
In order to make sure that muhammad was the last prophet, we have to validate the authenticity of quran. If that is prooved to be word of allah, I have no problem in coming to the right path. The simple test is quran should not have a single error because god can not err.
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 1:55:50 AM
Prayer and Practices for the Muslim is from the HAdeeths of the prophet and Hadeeths Qudsi is reported to be the direct words of Allah to the prophet - with regard to the social and physical obligations of a muslim.That does not mean that Quran is less or more important. They both go together-Just like FOOD & WATER !
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 1:57:18 AM
Venu !It was Charles Darwin ( a Human) who said that man came from the Apes ! So Why cant a Prophet tell its people that Allah - A creator - is Omnipresent. In fact a new study disproves darwind theorey in USA and a 6000 year history is traced from ADAM & EVE till the present. .
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 2:06:05 AM
Infi ! I dont want to call you infidel anymore ! QURAN has no errors-we belive-and its upto us to verify it by learning it deeply along with the Haddeths-Figh (Islamic Jurisprudence) You cannot become a surgeon by doing MBBS-you got to do MD ! So go deep into it and you will see what we dont see ! Insha Allah . To err is HUMAN and we all make mistakes ! SO you learn first hand and I am sure all your doubts will disappear !I being a Muslim- am still learning- So no one is perfect here !
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 2:06:33 AM
Infi ! I dont want to call you infidel anymore ! QURAN has no errors-we belive-and its upto us to verify it by learning it deeply along with the Haddeths-Figh (Islamic Jurisprudence) You cannot become a surgeon by doing MBBS-you got to do MD !
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 2:08:26 AM
Anindita & Sensless Critic !A debate is good ON whatever we can do something about. Yes Orphans-killings- poor- destitute-hunger-all this will linger on and so will Religion & GOD ALMIGHTY. Tahts the way we were born and thats the way we will all die ! BUT dont you agree -this debate is any day better than Shilpa-Judy - Noida-Cannibals-Politician-Corruption etc.Better than selling ice creams to the Eskimos-I am sure !
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 2:15:46 AM
Prayer and Practices for the Muslim is from the HAdeeths of the prophet and Hadeeths Qudsi is reported to be the direct words of Allah to the prophet - with regard to the social and physical obligations of a muslim.That does not mean that Quran is less or more important. They both go together-Just like FOOD & WATER !
Infidel Monday, January 22, 2007 2:16:01 AM
muneer, thanks for your comments on other blogs.Please confirm you mean "GOD IS OMNIPRESENT"
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 2:25:32 AM
Allah is OMNIPRESNT- Everywhere HE wishes ! BUT NOT where you wish HIM to be ! HE sees and knows ALL. IN fact HE lends you a helping hand whenever you do good ! Comments are getting posted OUT OF TURN !
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 7:06:53 PM
Dear Infidel, When you said "But we non-Muslims have a choice to look into all the religions and choose whatever appears to be a true religion", there is a catch there. If anyone chooses Islam, then, like Abhimanyu, they would be trapped in the Chakravyuha called Islam! You know they dislike apostates. So in the sane order of things, Islam should convert to Hinduism for freedom of religions.
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 7:11:23 PM
Dear Muneerka, Omnipresent means 'present everywhere at the same time', not 'present everywhere He wishes'. Is Allah Omnipresent?
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 7:17:55 PM
Dear Patriotic Muslim, You say, "All the messengers spoke through Arch Angel Gabriel. Only one messenger has spoken directly to God i.e Prophet Moses (pbuh)". Do you mean Mohammad never spoke to Allah? Please clarify.
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 8:19:37 PM
Dear Muneerka, When you say the Quran and the Hadeedths are like food and water, you are saying that Quran without the Hadeedths are incomplete and vice versa but both of them together are complete. Does this mean that God partnered with Mohammad in authoring his bestseller instruction manual to mankind? Allah abhors partnership.
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 8:23:38 PM
Dear Muneerka, Your claim that "QURAN has no errors" is not an unique claim. All believers believe so about their scriptures. So what’s new?
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 8:43:05 PM
Dear Muneerka, Your saying, "So go deep into it [Quran] and you will see what we don't see!” Let me tell you one thing I see which you apparently don't yet see. According to me "La ilaha illallah" which you would see as "there is no god but Allah" I see, going deeper, as "there is nothing but Allah". I make bold to say that the erroneous interpretation of the words "La ilaha illallah" by Mohammad and its due acceptance by Muslims is the most grievous hurt caused to the cause of spiritualism in world history. I believe Islam will in due course self-destruct merely for the misinterpretation of this single Tahil. But not to worry, there are Sufis who understand it as, “There is nothing to worship except Allah.” This, I believe, is nearer the truth.
K.Venugopal Monday, January 22, 2007 8:52:07 PM
Dear Muneerka, Do you believe that man has only a 6000 year history from ADAM & EVE till the present? What does the Quran say? If I understand correctly, Darwin never said that man came from monkeys. He talked of an intermediary species that has vanished. This is called the missing link. Maybe the whole jigsaw puzzle will fall in place if and when this missing link is found and we may not ridicule Darwin after all.