No one's faith can be questioned, but passing off faith as fact can.
[This is in reply to Rocking, who commented of Muneerudeen's blog MISCONCEPTIONS - REPLY TO VENUGOPAL on Sat Jan 13 at 8.25.10 pm.]
Dear Rocking,
1. First and foremost, I would like to make clear that I am not questioning the faith of Muslims or anyone’s faith whatsoever. Faith can move mountains. No one can question another’s faith for the simple reason that is a very personal matter. But trying to pass off faith as fact can certainly be questioned.
2. What I said was “God is not rotating the earth like you and I rotate a top.” Everything is consciousness, but it is only man who is conscious that he is conscious. We and the top are separate because the top is not conscious of itself whereas we are. God on the other hand is nothing other than consciousness. Therefore God and his creation are not separate.
3. The drama of creation presents itself before us due to the pulsating nature of consciousness. It is this nature of consciousness that manifests in duality, which is the basis on which consciousness experiences variety. (The explanation of this calls for the explanation of intricate science, which is spoken of in the Vedas.)
4. What we call God is the essential power of consciousness that we are. We realize that power when we wake up it. This awakening is what spirituality is all about – waking up to the power that we really are.
5. Issac Newton’s theory about a thing remaining in a state until and unless a force acts upon it is what we observe in our material world. The material world is only the solidified state of consciousness.
6. Do you remember Newton’s theory that matter can neither be created nor destroyed? There is no place for a creator God in this theory, is there?
7. In Islamic reasoning there is a simple answer to everything – Allah did it, Allah created it, Allah said it, only Allah knows etc. Since Islam believes the Creator-created separation, I ask, who created Allah? Or is this a taboo question?
8. Is a Muslim required to remember Allah with every breath of his? This is great. But what does it mean ‘to remember’ Does it not mean that Allah should be in our consciousness every moment? If you really do it, a moment will come when your consciousness becomes Allah. And such a person would say, Ane Al Haq, or Aham Brahmasmi – I am God.
9. The power Sufi saints have is because they are highly spiritual. The disconnect with Sufis is the major cause of problems in Islam. Many Muslims do not consider the Sufis to be Muslims at all.
10. Allah’s tradition of choosing a man and appointing him as a messenger is fine. But the claim that the tradition ended with Mohammad is inexplicable, except that it is written in the Quran.
11. What you mention about Mohammad sitting in the Nabavi mosque suggests, to me, that Mohammad was meditating and in the trance lost consciousness of his surroundings. However I am not able to imagine the pose he was in when you talk of ‘lap on lap’. In meditation, particularly if accompanied by pranayama, you sweat profusely. I do not know why Mohammad gained weight and his face became red. Do you?
12. You say Mohammad did not know how to read and write. For self realization neither is required. Mohammad certainly knew many things about the Jews - from them he borrowed at least the idea of circumcision and skull cap.
13. It appears that Mohammad had relapses on his spiritual path, which alone helps to reconcile many contradictory verses in the Quran. (One verse says that if you kill one man you have killed mankind and another verses says ‘slay them’.)
9:14:50 PM
Posted By Venu Gopal Comments (1) Uncategorized
Comments
RADHAKRISHNAN.C Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:20:03 PM
Great article by you really appreciate your effort in enlightening the brethern who think other wise and chose the wrong path.To guide them is a great service to humanity.But for the people who are so convincedthat their path is the path.they have to trod the path.and achieve whatever is their destinations.Neither you nor me can guide them.since they have already chosen thir path.
Great article by you really appreciate your effort in enlightening the brethern who think other wise and chose the wrong path.To guide them is a great service to humanity.But for the people who are so convincedthat their path is the path.they have to trod the path.and achieve whatever is their destinations.Neither you nor me can guide them.since they have already chosen thir path.
Roger Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:41:46 PM
Dear Venugopal, what if there is no God, or consciousness, beyond this life?
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:02:43 PM
Dear Radhakrishnan, I have no intention of moving anyone from their path. Since NDTV offers the platform and internet the medium, I am only thinking aloud. I am sensitive to others feelings, but I take it for granted that those who blog here are somewhat mature and see all this as just an open discussion of even subjects taboo elsewhere. Which is why I think we must cherish the freedom of the internet.
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:47:04 PM
Dear Radhakrishnan, I have no intention of moving anyone from their path. Since NDTV offers the platform and internet the medium, I am only thinking aloud. I am sensitive to others feelings, but I take it for granted that those who blog here are somewhat mature and see all this as just an open discussion of even subjects taboo elsewhere. Which is why I think we must cherish the freedom of the internet.
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:47:04 PM
Dear Roger,
Whatever we deny, we cannot deny that we exist, can we? Now we have to track the thought and ask, "What do I mean when I say "I". The thought process could go: Not my shirt. Not my hands, for I say 'my hands'. I only possess it, but it is not I. Something keeps saying 'my'. Who says it? Who is the conscious one? Of course, I am the conscious one. Who am I?
What if there is no God, or consciousness, beyond this life? What I possess becomes irrelevant to me as time goes on and when everything becomes totally irrelevant to me, that moment is called death. But I remain. For I am consciousness. I never die nor am I born. I only go to sleep and awaken with dreams and to fulfil those dreams, I embody again. Again and again, till one day I awaken to the dream TAT TVAM ASI and I go to sleep for the last time to awaken finally without dreams and on that day I achieve my liberation. On that day I am that. AHAM BRAHMASMI.
Rocking Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:42:31 PM
Venu I give up.There is no point in arguing any more. neither you can understand my point of view nor i can understand your point of view.So let us agree to disagree.
Roger Tuesday, January 16, 2007 11:08:45 PM
"Cogito ergo sum". Your premise is that conscousness is independant of, and exists beyond, one's physical being. It may be so. But it could easily be that death is the end of consciousness too. There is no continuum, it is the end. There is no re awakening. Perhaps life is not divinely ordained, but merely a chance occurrence, and a function of evoltion thereafter. Perhaps there is no meaning or purpose to life. All creatures, sentient or otherwise, are born, procreate, and die. There is nothing beyond that.
MUNEERUDEEN Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:02:36 AM
Iread the first two paragraphs and I knew this could only be the work of our great Hindu Mystic Yoga Exponent - Shri k Venugopal.NOW let me read the rest and comment !
Iread the first two paragraphs and I knew this could only be the work of our great Hindu Mystic Yoga Exponent - Shri k Venugopal.NOW let me read the rest and comment !
MUNEERUDEEN Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:16:05 AM
I think I have to create another blog to reply to you-since I do not want to reply by EMAIL -since we AGREED TO DISAGREE !I also do not want to hog all the space reserved for comments especially since my detailed comments dont get posted ! SO WATCH FOR MY BLOG IN REPLY !
I think I have to create another blog to reply to you-since I do not want to reply by EMAIL -since we AGREED TO DISAGREE !I also do not want to hog all the space reserved for comments especially since my detailed comments dont get posted ! SO WATCH FOR MY BLOG IN REPLY !
MUNEERUDEEN Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:16:25 AM
I think I have to create another blog to reply to you-since I do not want to reply by EMAIL -since we AGREED TO DISAGREE !
I think I have to create another blog to reply to you-since I do not want to reply by EMAIL -since we AGREED TO DISAGREE !
MUNEERUDEEN Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:27:13 AM
VenujiWE once again Cross paths ! Agreed YOU spent 10 years reading and researching the RSS Doctrine and the Vedas- BUT to put Issac Newton above Allah OR your own Brahma is absurd to the point of your even asking who created Brahma ?And if you say it is consiousness that creates Brahma and moves mountains - THEN in todays world with the millions of SUFIs and Yogis -the Himalayas should be in Japan and the Fuji in Alaska ! Dont be absurd Venu - trying to Brainwash the readers with your VENU VEDA !
VenujiWE once again Cross paths ! Agreed YOU spent 10 years reading and researching the RSS Doctrine and the Vedas- BUT to put Issac Newton above Allah OR your own Brahma is absurd to the point of your even asking who created Brahma ?And if you say it is consiousness that creates Brahma and moves mountains - THEN in todays world with the millions of SUFIs and Yogis -the Himalayas should be in Japan and the Fuji in Alaska ! Dont be absurd Venu - trying to Brainwash the readers with your VENU VEDA !
MUNEERUDEEN Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:31:22 AM
Venu !Sometimes I wonder if you are even sure that you are contracting yourself. You agree that there is NO Allah BUT Brahma is there.You say there is not ONE life BUT many and so many deaths !How many times does the GOD in you die ??? Aham Brahmasmi ? Whats after that I AM BRAHMA -Not HUMAN NOT BEAST NOT ANIMAL NOT INANE OBJECT ! BRAHMA- WHO ???
Venu !Sometimes I wonder if you are even sure that you are contracting yourself. You agree that there is NO Allah BUT Brahma is there.You say there is not ONE life BUT many and so many deaths !How many times does the GOD in you die ??? Aham Brahmasmi ? Whats after that I AM BRAHMA -Not HUMAN NOT BEAST NOT ANIMAL NOT INANE OBJECT ! BRAHMA- WHO ???
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:02:09 PM
Dear Rocking, Please do not take our blogs as arguments or attempts to convert or even convince others. Having the opportunity, we simply express ourselves. If we can understand what the other is trying to say, fine. Otherwise, we leave it at that. Life goes on, does it not? Anything more than this becomes activism. I'm not onto activism.
Dear Rocking, Please do not take our blogs as arguments or attempts to convert or even convince others. Having the opportunity, we simply express ourselves. If we can understand what the other is trying to say, fine. Otherwise, we leave it at that. Life goes on, does it not? Anything more than this becomes activism. I'm not onto activism.
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:08:09 PM
Roger, What you say may be right, perhaps. Our attempts to know should not unsettle us. Possibilities are more important than certainties. It is the awe of the fact that is more important than the fact. Knower, knowing and the knowledge. Let us reach the realm of oneness where there is nothing except the dance - the dance of joy!
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:31:53 PM
Dear Muneerka, I have not put Issac Newton above Allah. When another blogger quoted Newton’s law, I only quoted another of his law. For you the question “Who created Allah or Brahma” (incidentally I did not use the word Brahma but Brahman, which is a different concept) is impossible. But if questions can be formulated, then at some level they are valid. Islam teaches that man is the eternal slave and Allah the eternal master. The slave cannot know the master except follow his instructions.
Dear Muneerka, I have not put Issac Newton above Allah. When another blogger quoted Newton’s law, I only quoted another of his law. For you the question “Who created Allah or Brahma” (incidentally I did not use the word Brahma but Brahman, which is a different concept) is impossible. But if questions can be formulated, then at some level they are valid. Islam teaches that man is the eternal slave and Allah the eternal master. The slave cannot know the master except follow his instructions.
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:32:46 PM
Hinduism teaches that man is eternally divine and the source of our divinity is Brahman, whose nature is Sat Chit Anand – Eternal Joyous Consciousness, which is a pulsating force. At the periods of its pulsation creation and destruction occurs in the form of involution and evolution. Those who have understood this have expressed the drama of creation and destruction variously. This has come down to us as the corpus of Hindu scriptures and history and philosophy. Islam does not consider these things. It talks about intermediary beings but nothing is elaborated. Creation is a word that is in wide usage and it is difficult to escape its usage. But it would be more correct to say that there is a continuous change of form of the same force of consciousness in different intensities. Therefore, properly speaking, there is no creation at all. But since we at our human level of conscious perceive difference more than unity, the word creation is a useful word, but only that.
Hinduism teaches that man is eternally divine and the source of our divinity is Brahman, whose nature is Sat Chit Anand – Eternal Joyous Consciousness, which is a pulsating force. At the periods of its pulsation creation and destruction occurs in the form of involution and evolution. Those who have understood this have expressed the drama of creation and destruction variously. This has come down to us as the corpus of Hindu scriptures and history and philosophy. Islam does not consider these things. It talks about intermediary beings but nothing is elaborated. Creation is a word that is in wide usage and it is difficult to escape its usage. But it would be more correct to say that there is a continuous change of form of the same force of consciousness in different intensities. Therefore, properly speaking, there is no creation at all. But since we at our human level of conscious perceive difference more than unity, the word creation is a useful word, but only that.
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:35:29 PM
‘Faith moves mountains’ is a proverb. A dose of it is healthy. But too much of it makes us dogmatic. We have to get to the reality. We have to wake up from our lesser consciousness. I did not say anywhere there is no Allah. I have only been maintaining that we are Allah are not separate but one and disagreeing with you on the nature of Allah.There are many lives so that we can evolve to the destiny of our consciousness – to become Allah. Islam teaches that there is only one lifetime and then eternal paradise or barbeque. Well, as far as beliefs go, we have the choice. But the truth? Who knows? I do not claim that anything I said is the Truth. I only can say that I have expressed my understanding of matters as of now. Tomorrow it may be different. Who knows? But I have not intendedly lied anywhere.
‘Faith moves mountains’ is a proverb. A dose of it is healthy. But too much of it makes us dogmatic. We have to get to the reality. We have to wake up from our lesser consciousness. I did not say anywhere there is no Allah. I have only been maintaining that we are Allah are not separate but one and disagreeing with you on the nature of Allah.There are many lives so that we can evolve to the destiny of our consciousness – to become Allah. Islam teaches that there is only one lifetime and then eternal paradise or barbeque. Well, as far as beliefs go, we have the choice. But the truth? Who knows? I do not claim that anything I said is the Truth. I only can say that I have expressed my understanding of matters as of now. Tomorrow it may be different. Who knows? But I have not intendedly lied anywhere.
MUNEERUDEEN Friday, January 19, 2007 2:26:21 AM
I HAVE GIVEN A DETAILED 13 POINT REPLY TO THE 13 POINTS RAISED BY VENUGOPAL. LET OUR BLOGGERS READ BOTH AND MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND ! NO PRESSURE-ONLY READING PLEASURE ! SO GO ON FOLKS ! ENJOY THE READ AND POST YOUR COMMENTS ! BOUQUETS AND BRISKBATS-WELCOME !!!
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