Monday, January 29, 2007
Is everyone a Muslim by birth?
There was a blog on Monday, January 22, 2007 titled Rachel Noor-The Reversion Story, posted By
Mohammed Irshad Hussain at 7:39:17 PM, to which I commented:
“This is a touching story and hope she would be happy in her new religion. But why has she called it a reversion when it was a conversion?”
Irshad4u in turn commented, “Think true think right It is not conversion it is reversion because Islam is God's religion as everyone is Muslim by birth.”
I think it sounds funny, though I am sure Irshad4u did not crack a joke and he has sincerely made a statement which is believes is true. It sounds funny because it is quite of a piece with Muslims’ claim that Islam existed even before Mohammad!
Dear Muneerka,
I did not question Irshad4u right to hold any religious believes he wants. As a Hindu, it is not in our blood to do that. But as a Hindu it is in our blood to question all assumptions as we are bound by no slavish decree. Dear Infidel,
There is nothing to fear. Our basic reality is consciousness/awareness/wakefulness. Because of the palpable nature (on/off nature) of consciousness, if we are in awareness at the moment of death, that moment would be as wondrous as any we can experience in our awakened state. If we are unconscious, it does not anyway matter. Consciousness never suffers, only our lack of awareness causes suffering. When Krishna said in the Geeta what a person thinks at the moment of death that he becomes, there is quite a lesson there. At crucial moments we are not likely to think right (like Arjuna was not able to in the battlefield) unless we are seeped in the culture of consciousness. The technique of awakening to our full consciousness is meditation (the turning within). When we are seeped in the culture of meditation, then nothing can catch us off-guard, not even death. In any case, death brings new life, not eternal roast. But Paradise . . . ah! with Gardens of Eternity beneath which rivers flow where the late slave will be adorned with bracelets of gold, wearing green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; reclining on a beautiful couch in a beautiful mansion, fed with fruits and drink of wine pure and holy and served by youths of perpetual freshness. How good the recompense!. . . Let’s ask Muneerudeen bhai to put in a good word for us, just in case . . .
8:43:28 PM
Posted By
Venu Gopal Comments (8) Uncategorized Comments
muneerudeen Monday, January 29, 2007 9:51:27 PM
VenujiYou have your beleifs and we have ours ! WE AGREED TO DISAGREE-REMEMBER ? iRSHAD 4 u COMMENTED ON OUR BELEIF-iIts upto you to take it or reject it. Every person has been given the power of understanding and what religion he chooses finally will matter !
dalit_voice Monday, January 29, 2007 10:03:01 PM
Mr Muneer i completely agree with you.Just because people are leaving hinduism for a better religion does not mean you will bring a legislation to curb it.There has to be freedom of following any faith.
WILLY JOWER Monday, January 29, 2007 10:51:41 PM
THIS MAY BE NICE JOKE "EVERYBODY A MUSLIM BY BIRTH". DO EMAIL THIS JOKE TO WORLD SO THAT PEOPLE LAUGH A LOT. IF SOMEBODY GETTING SERIOUS JUST THINK WHAT THE GREAT TERRORIST FACTORIES ARE MAKING, ARE THEY NOT MUSLIMS ??
Badmash Monday, January 29, 2007 10:59:49 PM
Terrorist+Muslim= Devil, Yes who ever born with devils quality they are muslim. so not everyone is Muslim by birth.
Accha Admi Monday, January 29, 2007 11:16:47 PM
Hey why do hindu woman worship P enis?That because they constantly need one LOL
lotus Monday, January 29, 2007 11:26:56 PM
Accha Admi, Your comment shows your frustration, when you cant answer logically.There can be many similar acidic, irrelevant comments on you also. So stick to the topic.
amardeep Monday, January 29, 2007 11:43:32 PM
hey Lotus, why pinpoint accha Admi only read other blogs also, they are equally bad as they are also illogical.
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:07:28 AM
Dear Muneerka, Please see above.
Upper_caste Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:18:38 AM
hey Readers see this comment from Dalit_voice"Mr Muneer i completely agree with you.Just because people are leaving hinduism for a better religion does not mean you will bring a legislation to curb it.There has to be freedom of following any faith. "Kill these untouchables
perfektm Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:59:11 AM
you need to get your circumcision done, without that you are not muslim according to holy koran.... so everyone is born as a hindu :p
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:51:22 AM
Muslims need circumcision and shahada and chirtians need baptism. So one can not be muslim or christian by birth. May be hindu, Jain etc.
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:13:18 AM
I can't recall now, but there is something like, allah asks before birth to follow islam, he takes oath from person to born etc. May be Irshad or Muneer can help?
muneerudeen Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:14:43 AM
Being born a Muslim-means being born pure- sinless- Then you grow you commit sins-repent-again commit sins-again repent-again commit sins-again repent ! "Summa aamanu Summa Kafaroo-Summa Aaamanu Summa Kafaroo-Summazdadu Kufran......
muneerudeen Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:17:42 AM
When you die a Muslim-with Eiman-you are sinless and go to Heaven.But if you die without Eiman-as a follower or as a Non Muslim-you face the Lord's questions and his Judgement-in which we have no say !He forgives-those HE wishes and condemns those who follow the Shaitan !
muneerudeen Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:26:38 AM
Circumsission -Shahada and Baptism are for this WORLD's firststeps in life-YOUR ABC's .Then you progress to degrees of Faith and become a PHd OR a success in life ! Thats the true Goal of Islam. A Phd for the next life while doing your thesis and working for it in this life !
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:46:28 AM
Muneer, do you mean to say that muslim means sinless? Please explain what is islamic definition of sin, eimaan, faith.If a nonmuslim (by birth)lives his whole life with great humanity, love and care for others, never hurt a person, always helpful to others, dies as non muslim, will he be considered as sinner by allah just because he was not muslim in his earthly life?Will a muslim be not considered as sinner even if he murdered, looted, raped and did all wrong things in his life, but dies as muslim?
RUZAN_SHAH Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:06:58 AM
VenuYes Islam was there before Mohammed & it sounds funny to you & you dont understand this simple fact because you are on the lower strata of spiritual ladder.Islam talks from Adam to Mohammed, its loud & clear in Quran that Allah sent thou messenger to all the races,all over on all the time.Adam was first prophet & Mohammed was last prophet & Islam is refinement of all the divine decrees.You need to be a muslim to understand certain trueth, you cant understand higher echelon when you are stranded in 84 lakhs feras.84 lakh fere fir ke achha bhala aadmi ghan chakkar ho jayega bhaiya...lolAnyway your claim is funny though...lolActually its not in your blood to question rationale if so why you never question sexual exploitation of Devdasi ?You never question stupid caste system by Manu ?You never question absurd & illogical puranas ?whats the logic of linga pooja ?Stop your non-senseYou people never think with open heart & mind thats why you vandalised & banned Mira Naiyyer's water just because it exposed the cruelty against helpless widows in the banks of your most holy siteWatch that movie its really shocking & it is nominated for Oscar award from Canada.Shame on you & your stupidity.
muneerudeen Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:21:16 PM
Infi !Surely - A person like you - who has questioned the faith so deeply -and not accepted Islam -Even if you have been good ,human everything- Still will go to HELL ! Others who are unaware of Islam -may not - It is ALLAH's WILL AND HE ALONE CAN JUDGE !We are only Humans-his creation !
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:46:13 PM
Dear Ruzan, Hinduism has, each generation, the option to look anew its heritage, chuck off useless package, cherish the valuable and continue in its journey to the divine. Islam, with no option, is stuck with middle-age baggage and seeks to curtail the journey to the divine due to its inability to move on with the dead-weight of its baggage. Islam has only one chance of survival that that is through a demographic victory. The increasing number of loyal foot soldiers (off unrestricted breeding) may put it in a position to vanquish militarily all kafirs. But alas, the compulsions of living in a modern world (not the creation of Mohammad), might not ever give Muslims a demographic superiority.
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:06:00 PM
Dear Muneerka, Whatever in truth Islam is, your interpretation as evidenced in your comment above, reveals that yours is a zombie like existence as far as spiritualism goes. But you might not be worried about it. Convinced of being Allah's loyal foot solider, the very faith would keep you living in fool's paradise quite comfortably.
Basdmash Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:30:03 PM
Very True- even its loud and clear in Nursery Rhymes about "Adams and Eva"(Tarzan & Zen) i didn't know if they were also Terrorist..lol
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:59:03 PM
Venu, you can see the compulsion in muneer's reply. He wrote:"A person like you - who has QUESTIONED the faith so deeply -and NOT ACCEPTED ISLAM -Even if you have been GOOD HUMAN everything- Still will go to HELL"So one has to accept islam since one has questioned whether quran is from god or muhammad. Even after proving that quran is from muhammad, I have to accept islam in any case, in order to save myself from allah's hell. How pathetic and how fear mongering?And you are discussing spiritualism with him? What was your word, oh yea, "ZOMBIE", doesn't it say all?
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:04:12 PM
AND venu, don't forget"NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION".You will see many times this "bits and pieces" and "out of context" verse to convince that islam is peace and tolerance.You have read analysis of this verse in detail, right. Get enlightened, venu, islam is the only true religion without any compulsion. Allah is all wise and he alone can judge (actually he had judged already before you and me were born, LOL).
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:27:38 PM
Dear Infidel, I've just posted a piece of commentary by Swami Dayanand Saraswati, legendary founder of the Arya Samaj, on Quran. His critique on Islam (as well as Hinduism, Christianity etc) would be an eye-opener if you have not already read Light of Truth. Worth locating the book and pouring through it.
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:39:23 PM
And Venu, we should thank kafir's technology, the INTERNET, which just saved us from being beheaded. Do you think I would have been able to comment here today, when debate ended yesterday if it was not on internet?Anyway, be fearful of hellfire.LOL
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:52:24 PM
Thanks, venu.By now, you would have understood what "fallacy of circular reasoning" is.Who says muhammad is allah's prophet - its quran.Who wrote quran - muhammad.So who is self proclaimed prophet of islam - muhammad.And islam was on this earth from adam onwards.LOLwhat is the proof that adam was first prophet of islam - quran.and "You need to be a muslim to understand certain trueth" means submit your logic and rational thinking and your intellegancy (if you have being a non muslim), then only you will see the truth.
K.Venugopal Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:41:23 PM
Dear Infidel, Please read my comment to you posted in my blog above.
RADHAKRISHNAN.C Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:33:35 PM
Dear Mr.Venugopal,you are wasting time and energy trying to convince these people who in the first place dont want to understand what freedon of religion is.They are so much obligated to their faith they dont want to hear others talk anything but their view point.Only had they known what religious freedom is they would atleast make an attempt to hear you.Under the circumstances all you say will be falling on deaf hears.think u know the three monkeys.It suits these people better
affu Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:42:28 PM
Hey Ruzan , i really appreciate your comment, keep itupNo matter how much u try to explain them with all possible rationale reasoning these people are determined not to leave the path of irrational thinkig.
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:06:03 PM
Great one, Venu. I don't want such a paradise, which is full of sex (72 vergins and eternal errection)and vine and gold but no divinity, no eternal peace, no moksha, no godThis is a dream shown by muhammad to his companions, (who only dreamed of such things in their earthly life), to sacrifies in the name of allah, to fulfill his own wishes. Hoories, vine, gold, silk, a kind of imaginary bribe to the blind followers to die for muhammad.
Krishna_bhumi Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:18:31 PM
Mr RADHAKRISHNAN.C you are right!We enjoy the freedom of religion, Our religion does not intefere in having sex with our mothers & sisters, killing innocent, taking part in dirty politics etc.we separeate religion from our day to day activities
affu Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:24:56 PM
Akhir kitna samjha jayega aap logo ko?Any d ick wil understand by reading various comments these people have made...
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:28:06 PM
Venu, we are irrational and they are rational, LOL.Then why can't they answer our questions rationally? Why always end up with AD HOMINEM, RED HERRING etc?
taklu Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:29:06 PM
Abay infidelpagal bhi apnay ko hosiar samajhta hai like you think.
Infidel Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:54:40 PM
Venu, you can see the WISDOM revealed by ZOMBIES. Need any more proofs? LOL
Badmash Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:27:08 PM
Lol Lol lolllll Infidel, good sense of humor, u just hit the bulls eyes ;), Thats wot m wondering why venu is still replyin to'em, see how nasty is Muslim i found one arab mms a muslim guy wrote quraan on his wife A$$ lolllll was funy sory it was . best place to preach loll
Sita Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:31:13 PM
The best god for woman to pray is P enis Bhagwan!! Dont you think Badmash. LOL LOL LOLI lik the shape of the Lingus, imagine how big must be the hole.LOL LOl LOL @##@
Infidel Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:17:09 PM
this is an example of "tu quoque". From wikipedia:"Tu quoque (Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is an argument that implies that a certain position is false and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to consistently act in accordance with that position; it attempts show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It can be considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the opposite party itself, rather than its positions.For instance, "Reverend Bob claims that theft is wrong, but how can theft be wrong if Bob himself admits he stole objects when he was a child?"If there are mistakes in hinduism or any other religion, how does that make islam perfect. Just because muhammad said so in quran (not god, for sure).Only islam claims to be directly from god, the only true religion.
manMan Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:31:07 PM
Mr Infidel iam not supporting any side but why you always against muslims?Cant you see the language of both sides.I wonder if you are paid to blog against muslim etc
Infidel Thursday, February 1, 2007 12:09:19 PM
I am not against muslims. I am against the claim that only one religion is true and others are fake, untill proven.Keep your wonder with you, I can't help you in that, sorry.
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:23:17 AM
Infi !Do I see two sides of you ! Your comments here are different from those in the debates ! Well we all have our bad moods I guess !Venuji I am waiting for more discourses from Swami Dayanand ji ! As for the foul mouthed-no one can clean it up for them !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:26:15 AM
Infi !So little you have all understood ISLAM. No one said ALL religions are fake-except ISLAM. Look at it this way- Islam is Windows VISTA and that doesnt make Win XP or WIN98 or WIN 95 fake ! It is onle NEW ! IMPROVED ! ALL religions are from GOD-your Eashwar-MY ALLAH ! BUT ISLAM is the LASTEST ! SO UPDATE yourselves !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:28:29 AM
Infi "Tu quoque" is too much for me.But in simple english- reverend Bob's story.When Rev Bob was a kid he did not understand theft.Now he understands it and if he commits theft-then he is sinning ! Thats the concept of ISLAM- Learn the truth and practice it !Same with everyday life. You know you cannot work with WIN 95- then Upgrade to Win Vista ! Easier than "tu quo que" Right folks !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:42:19 AM
In fact even today I think HINDU SWAMIS- PRAY in the NUDE -Just the way they were created -in front of their creator ! So when they go there-why should they be ASHAMED ! We ALL dont go to HEAVEN dressed in ARMANI suits -Just remember that ! Its only the wickedness in MAN's mind that makes us clothe ourselves on earth !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:53:39 AM
Infi - you said above-No compulsion in Religion- Allah knows even before we were born !LOL!Let me rephrase this ! Baghwan knows what you do- who your parents are-when you were conceived-everything- and he made you be born in a Hindu family as a human -not a dog or cat or crow- Right ? So whats the problem in just substituting your Baghwan for OUR ALLAH ???and then read it !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:54:27 AM
Infi !Again -on your bribes of 72 Virgins and thrones of Silk and Brocade- Why -cant you wait for your rewards.Oh those are evreyday rewards you get for a few bucks from Prostitiutes -Right ? So whats so great about wine and silk. Its forbidden now BUT rewarded if you want to splurge after you are victorious !You dont spray champagne till you WIN a race !Why ?
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:54:46 AM
Venuji ! My Zombie Life as a foot soldier of ALLAH is a thousand times better than Spiritually cleansing oneself by having a dip in the polluted Ganga-OR pouring milk over a phallus-or giving food to GODS-that dont eat them-OR adorn them with jewels-or sell LADDUS as GODS prasadam ! And the sightseeing of females at templs! Entertaining stuff really ! TRUE better than Zombie Life in HELL !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 1:59:36 AM
Those are similitudes NOT bribes ! BUT do you think your CREATOR cannot provide you ALL the promised things - IF you wanted it- AS a reward for your sacraficing those earthly pleasures now ? And you wont look at it the same way in Heaven - simply because the sense of being in the LAWFUL presence of your LORD EASHWAR - OUR ALLAH !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 2:04:17 AM
Venu- In your reply to RUZAN- you say that Only MUSLIMS are multiplying through unrestricted breeding and the demographics are differnt in modern times ! TRUE_ because Muslims DONT abort their female foetesus (NOT MURDER?)They dont stab you at the BACK and fight with bare hands-against the mightiest military demographics of Modern warfare _ AND YET WIN !Thats what ALLAH's Foot soldiers do !
muneerudeen Friday, February 2, 2007 2:25:50 AM
I guess this is getting too much with comments- So let me give a chance to others to answer and I'll come back and correct your misconceptions in a few days ! TATA ! ruizvan Friday, February 2, 2007 9:57:42 PM
Very very well said Muneer bhai,After reading your comments i am reminded of an Ayah in the Quran were Allah says in Surah nahl:125. Invite (mankind, O Muhammad ) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islâm) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. And also the next ayah:126. And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allâh), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.) but still the non-believers wrongly state that "Allah has asked muslims to kill all the non muslims".
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:10:08 AM
Dear Muneerka, You said, "No one said ALL religions are fake except ISLAM." If you can prove that Islam and its interpreters say that other religions are also true just like Islam, then our debate ends. Because this is the position I am trying to convince you and this is the Hindu position. You also said, "ALL religions are from GOD-your Eashwar-MY ALLAH!" This too I agree. But when you say, "ISLAM is the LASTEST!" I disagree. For something that is 1,400 years old can hardly be the latest, considering that we've had the Sikh religion, Bhahai faith, the Sai phenomenon, to mention just a few, all after Mohammad. Worse still, Islam holds that it is the LAST word of God. This is the hollowest claim ever made in the history of religions. Islam, having restricted God in space by saying that He is separate from his creation, also restricts Him in time by saying that He stopped talking in the middle ages!
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:17:58 AM
Dear Muneerka, Your example of Win 95 and Win Vista would see Bill Gates upgrade from Vista without a 1,400 years and still continuing hiatus. Has Allah lost even Bill Gate's creativity in upgradation?
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:17:05 PM
Dear Muneerka, I am unable to follow the context in which you talk about Hindu Swamis praying in the nude. Please elaborate.
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:18:01 PM
Dear Muneerka, You ask, "So what's the problem in just substituting your Baghwan for OUR ALLAH?" It’s Hindus who say "Allah, Ishwar tere naam". The idea is not substitution but inter-changeability because the meaning of both the words are not different. Would you as a Muslim agree to this?
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:48:19 PM
Dear Muneerka, Promises of virgins, thrones, silk and brocades are from the Quran. If you think they are "everyday rewards you get for a few bucks from prostitutes", are you saying the Quran is promising you prostitutes in Paradise?
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 4:54:32 PM
Dear Muneerka, About zombie life as foot-soldiers, dip in polluted Ganga . . . well, it takes everything to make up life. Let us live and learn and let our conclusions only be a take-off for newer learnings. Let us not say that knowledge ends and the last word has been arrived at, whether in the Vedas or the Quran.
K.Venugopal Saturday, February 3, 2007 5:39:22 PM
Dear Muneerka, You say that our sense of being in the LAWFUL presence of "your LORD ESHWAR - OUR ALLAH would transform matters in Heaven. No doubt. But does that mean that Allah is not present on earth or that his presence is unlawful? I am sure not, but the way you've put things, it sounds that way.
infidel Sunday, February 4, 2007 12:23:38 AM
Munner, are you trying to deviate from islam? Isn't islam is the only true religion, allah is only true god and quran is allah's word? If islam is not the only true religion then other religions are also true. That means god of other religion is also true and other religious scriptures also true as they guide us to god. Please clarify.
infidel Sunday, February 4, 2007 12:31:07 AM
Great one, Venu. Could not say better than that.You can see, what is the effect of sticking to 7th century idiology. Since quran is the last word of allah, nothing can go after that. Nothing is even permissible to think beyond quran, because allah is all knowing and he put everything in quran for all man kind, all times and all places. So if you are trying to find/research/eveolve other than quran said, actually you are going against allah's words,'coz that can not be reformed.That is the reason that all islamic countries are so poor and backward (except oil-rich countries). Perfect example was afganistan under atliban rule.Just think, if whole world turn into ummah, ie everybody is muslim, there will be no advancement, nosc. discoveries (you actually don't need any, all miracles are in quran), no medical research, etc. In other world, in 21st century, we will be vertually living in 7th century barbarism.
K.Venugopal Sunday, February 4, 2007 9:19:25 AM
Dear Infidel, It can be safely said that the whole issue between Islam and other religions is that Islam says that Mohammad brought the last word of Allah. I would be comfortable with every other word in the Quran because, being of a philosophic bend of mind, I would be able to put it in proper perspective. The problem is with one single word in the Quran. I am not getting into the etymology of the word but in English translation the word 'seal' has been used. A particular Quranic verse says that Mohammad is the seal of prophets. Even among the Muslims, the word seal is understood as meaning, say, 'excellent', i.e., Mohammad is the most excellent of the prophets or even, the greatest of the prophets. But somewhere along the line, or at the beginning of the line, the word seal was understood as 'the last', as in 'sealed and delivered' - no more changes are possible. According to me, it could mean that Mohammad was the last in a series of ‘disciplic’ successions, from Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus to Mohammad. This is probable when we consider that the all knowing Quran has not mentioned Hinduism – Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Devi or any of a whole host of them, including Mahavir and Buddha. . It has not touched even on the Vedas, though now-a-days Muslims claim that the Vedas have spoken of Mohammad! Speaking of successions and the last of it, Satya Sai Baba has said that there would be one more avatar of him to come, meaning that the series which began with Shirdi Baba and continued with Satya Sai Baba would end with Prem Baba. I do not think Satya Sai Baba said anywhere that after Prem Baba, the deluge! The same goes for, say, the Swami Narayan sect, which has a disciplic succession. So in that way, Mohammad may be last. But to say that Mohammad got the last word of God and we have now only to wait for the deluge (the last judgement in this case) is the reason why Islam, as is expounded, sticks out like a sore thumb in the world of religion.
